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Hugh Fearnley Chickenstall
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KZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue is that the lifestyles to which people are accustomed are not sustainable.

We aren't supposed to eat so much bloody meat in the first place, and if people genuinely can't afford it they can eat cheaper meats!
What's wrong with offal?
Vegetable protein?

The power of the purse is perhaps the single way in which we can all vote for change. If you think before you buy, you can buy ethically.
Sure - we all have to draw the line somewhere, be it by choosing free range and still shopping at Tescos, or by avoiding the Gap labelled clothes, or whatever.

Our choices as individuals DO MATTER.
Maybe one speck of a person changing their purchasing choice doesn't hurt a supermarket, but a couple of thousand individuals changing will be noticed, and will make a difference.

It's your conscience, and your choice. If you can't afford free range - fine. Doesnn't mean you HAVE to eat the crap that is being peddled as an alternative. Buy some pulses. Save up and eat chicken every other week rather than every week.

It's not our right to cause suffering. It's our responsibility to end it.

DO SOMETHING!

http://www.chickenout.tv/
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Chris
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Time to protest outside Tesco Kev:



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KZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choice!
Laughing
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Nicepix
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where does it end though Kev?

Pork is intensively reared.
Beef is increasingly so, following the American example of restricting movement to increase weight gain.
Pheasants are battery reared before being turned out to be shot.
Trout are intensively reared before being turned out to provide sport.

Do we still boycott Japanese products because of the way they treated WW2 prisoners?
What about human rights abuse in China? Surely we value human suffering more than animals?
Are people still right to avoid South African fruit because of Apartheid?
Remember French farmers burning our lamb and refusing our apples? Force feeding geese too! Strike them off?
Spanish fishermen trawling our fish and bullfighting? That's Spain off the list for fruit, veg and wine not to mention holidays and second homes.
Don't mention the war! German atrocities against Russians and Jews means we shouldn't buy their cars?
Vietnam uses child labour. No clothing from there then?
Malaysia - ditto?
Turkey? Political situation in meltdown. Ethnic cleansing of Kurds. Can't go there on holiday can we?
Thailand? Sex trade exploitation means that's off the buy and holiday list.

You make me laugh. Grab one issue just because its in the news and try to make people feel guilty. Have a look around your house and see how many products you have bought from China or Vietnam. Once you have replaced them come back to me.
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KZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Balls.
You have no bloody idea Clive - don't try and personalise this. The sad thing is - I reckon you are an ethical individual, who has decent opinions on the issues you highlight above. Just for some twisted reason you get pleasure out of goading people on the internet.
Pleased that it causes you such mirth.
You don't make me laugh. I pity you.
Use your energies more constructively, and at the very least direct your ill informed criticisms elsewhere.

As I stated - we have to draw the line somewhere...

I choose to eat less meat, and that which I buy is farmed properly. I know what I'm on about. I come from a farming background, I live in a rural community, and I work bloody hard to make my choices count.
I make a lot of choices on an ethical or political basis that I don't care to air for your viewing pleasure.
Believe me - I am bloody well informed about apartheid, bullfighting, and believe it or not the far eastern economy. Also the implications of sanctions and boycotts thereon.

But this thread is about intensively reared chicken.
That is an unpleasant practice.
I have walked sheds of 40000 birds, asked the questions of the farmer, spoken to the feed merchants, dealt with the chemicals suppliers who sterilise and specify the biosecurity.
I have informed my opinion most thoroughly.

The practice of intensively rearing broilers is wrong.
I jump on the bandwagon of this thread because the issue is a "current affair." Great - more publicity. I have been talking to people on this issue for years, and will continue to for years to come.
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Nicepix
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev,

People have to make their own choices. It is not for you to say that people should have to eat pulses or offal because they can't afford free range chicken. The woman buying the battery chicken might have chosen not to buy a television made in China. She might be equally as pissed off as you are because you have ought electrical goods made in China or training shoes made in Vietnam.

You don't like being challenged because you are intelligent enough to know that your position is unsustainable.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicepix wrote:
Chris,

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against ethical purchasing. I have had my own blacklist for years, but I won't try to tell others that they should not buy certain products. If everybody did that and we all took notice then we wouldn't be able to afford to live. Certainly not in the manner to which we are accustomed.

That's the difference. I don't try to preach my beliefs and I don't feel smug about my personal ethical purchases because in reality I know that it makes a gnat's shit's difference to the world.


But you do - you tell people who have the opposite to your "I cant make a difference opinion, so I'll tell everyone else they cant make a difference." that they are wrong and they dont have the right to instead of saying... you know what if they want to make a small difference of good then good on them.
It's the one person in the beginning that stands up and actually says I can make a difference that eventually gets a thread like this started.

After reading through this thread I will pay the extra for free range chickens and have signed the campaign. Guess it made a difference.
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Nicepix
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FryFly,

You are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting my views. I do not tell people to do anything. I resent people telling me or others that they should do, or not do something because of their opinions. It is down to personal choice. By all means bring something to the attention of the general public if you think it is necessary, but let them make the choice as to whether they believe it or not, or agree with it or not.

To suggest that poor people should eat pulses rather than cheap animal products smacks of Sir Keith Joseph's crackpot opinions and I distance myself from that type of comment.

This whole debate hinges on one thing: Cruelty.

Now there are two ways to define cruelty; the legal definition which like a legal definitions is open to interpretation, and a personal definition. That personal definition is unlikely to be shared by any two people. Ask 100 people whether keeping pet rabbits or caged birds is cruel and you might get a 50 /50 split. Ask the same 100 if the keeping of dogs is cruel and it might go 98 / 2 against. Yet the domestication of some breeds of dog is just as confining as keeping a parrot in a cage. The legal definition of cruelty can be changed by democratic means. Up to 2 years ago it wasn't legally cruel to hunt mammals with dogs. Now it is.

Cruelty is purely a human thing. Animals do not know cruelty. Ask any veterinary surgeon or animal psychologist. You kick a dog and you will either get respect or a fight. The dog does not think you are cruel. He thinks that you are imposing yourself as a pack leader or are challenging his position in the pack. Both are natural actions in nature. The domestication of any animal is cruel to some degree. This is offset against the care and welfare given by us. Puppy farming is often regarded as cruel yet in nature a female dog would be pregnant just about all her life and no one would give her supplements or protect her young from predators. Milk production is cruel. Cows suffer horrendous damage to their feet and receive no treatment because to do so would price that farmer out of the market. Yet domesticated cattle live longer than wild cattle.

Battery hens do not long for the open fields because they do not know anything different. It is not like Chicken Run. Whether a chicken is confined in a battery shed or has its primaries pulled out and allowed outdoors is still captivity. It is cruel in our eyes to a greater or lesser degree. The chickens don't know either way. Your disgust at how battery chickens are treated is not shared by the chickens.

There are too many wrongs in this world for me to fight them all so in matters like this one I rely heavily on the legal definition of cruelty and make personal adjustments where necessary. That is not to say that I won't canvas my MP if I think something needs changing. That is how democracy works to change things. I also vote with my pocket and that changes things too. And I am constantly aware of the intentions of business to steer consumers into ethical avenues that entail more profit for themselves.

The one thing that gets right up my nose is the single issue zealots who can't accept that everybody is entitled to make their own decisions. To suggest that poor people should change their eating habits just to suit the zealot's personal hobby-horse is naive to say the least

By all means give them the facts then let them decide for themselves.
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KZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A sensible and rounded post, that I largely concur with.
Bugger!

http://www.chickenout.tv/

That said - I think ALL people SHOULD eat more pulses and less meat, for the good of themselves and the planet.

http://www.chickenout.tv/

No single issue - big, holistic, multi issue concerns are at play there...

Crackpot opinions? I got a whole heap of those!
Perhaps not better to get on that one here and detract from the single issue of the thread though Wink

When it comes down to it - every choice and decision we make on an ethical or moral basis has an element of trade off involved. The trick is to trade off as little as possible and stick to your principles regardless of the crap that gets thrown at you... 'cos what gets right up my nose is hypocrisy. And apathy. And a whole range of issues like intensive broiler rearing, the profusion of softwood monocultures in forestry, wasteful squandering of resources, poor grammar. And sentences starting with and.
And a million other things.

http://www.chickenout.tv/

But this week I'm mostly against intensive chicken rearing!

http://www.chickenout.tv/
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AndySev
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't have put it better myself!
Well done Nicepix!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most frustrating thing is you know the cause is just and could choose to help educate people to make better decisions but to me it just seems you are the first to jump in from and agumentative point of view dismissing anyone who is trying to make a difference in something. Calling them Zealots and imersed in their hobby-horses is not IMHO even close to justified. You've called me one before, Yet here I am making a statement on another topic - chickens definitly arent my hobby horse Wink

You make a lot of valid points. But each one of your points could be used to make even more reason to get behind a good cause. Be it one you havent heard before or one you are clearly educated on. Couldn't you consider if you could use your posts to a more positive light? I'm not telling just asking. Be nice to see you on another side of the fence in a debate, Wink

If people should be allowed to do whatever they like without being told they were right or wrong Whats the point of the police force or justice. Aren't they telling us what they can or cant do? Telling is not suggesting as Kev has done with the pulses so your statement is not sound. I understand the survival of the fittest and natures cycle of life less i must adnmit about chickens. But bringing in your dog analogy is just as relevant as my police analogy. Chain a dog to tap with a 3 feet piece of braided rope then kick it and beat it everyday and see what happens to it - I took a dog like this in once his nose wasnt as wet and his tail didnt wag - so that isnt cruelty. It's not cruel if you treat the animal right.

But I see what you say to an extent here, and would like to understand something. Do they actually suffer, the chickens. Dogs feel pain so im sorry but i cant consider you reference as thats rubbish its just plain cruel. But do chickens. I mean do they suffer muscle cramps etc. I dont have a problem catching fish because scientifically its been proved they dont have pain receptors. hmm a lot of these debates are forcing me to look a lot deeper in myself and ask some questions about the food I eat. Can anyone shed light on that ?
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ChrisNicholls
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No more cheap eggs soon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7180018.stm

Broiler chicken next I wonder?
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KZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bring it on. Been anti battery hens since I was 6 years old in Zim.

Broilers should be next.

Then Pig units.

Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FryFly,

You seem to misunderstand quite a bit of what has been said. Your analogy of the police force doesn't stand because the police should only be enforcing laws that have been democratically agreed by society.

The dog on the chain or chickens analogy doesn't stand because nowhere have I said that animals can't or don't suffer pain. I claim that they do not understand cruelty. That is a big difference.

As for whether Kev suggested or stated that they should eat pulses not cheap meat....

Quote:
If the masses need cheap protein - let them eat pulses.


Quote:
We aren't supposed to eat so much bloody meat in the first place, and if people genuinely can't afford it they can eat cheaper meats!
What's wrong with offal?
Vegetable protein?


Quote:
If you can't afford free range - fine. Doesnn't mean you HAVE to eat the crap that is being peddled as an alternative. Buy some pulses.


His words, not mine.
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KZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh hell....

and I stand by them!

I am not telling you what to do. Merely stating an opinion - we, as omnivores, have never eaten quite as much meat and saturated fat as we do now.

50 years back chicken was a rare treat. This is, I think, part of the problem - people want the treat every day.

The whole thing with mass production of chicken, salmon, intensive pork units is to provide cheap protein for the masses.

What we really need is less masses... and I remain somewhat ambivalent as to whether pulses are the best way forward - with tongue in cheek - if we feed soya protein to the fastest breeding females in society and prolong their reproductive cycle (re: soya bein oestrogenic)we'll only exacerbate the problem Wink You want crackpot? I got it!

Seriously though - we (as a nation) used to eat a whole lot less top end meat, and more offal... now so much of the beasts are wasted - re: the silly cow on the chicken programme only using the breasts.
Liver, Kidney, tripe, trotters, lights, skirt, shank...
There's a shedload of alternatives out there for those on a budget.

Why the hell should people have a right to eat chicken / steak / caviar if they can't afford it?
Why should birds suffer to appease them?

Save for your chicken. Eat less chicken. work harder, smoke and drink less.

Suggestions, not direct instructions.... though I'd quite happily rant like a zealot at the dipsticks "in the pub" that don't give a toss. Wink


Last edited by KZ on Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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