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Airflow Forty Plus lines
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Fryfishing
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Airflow Forty Plus lines Reply with quote

A quick question as I have tried a bit of research and can not find an answer.
I have (as you know) a Forty Plus DI7 and it feels to heavy for my 7#Daiwa Lochmoor when I am in a boat and trying to cast it out.
My question is should you buy the matching line for the rod or go one weight down, so 6# for my seven rod?

I do plan to have a go with the above set up in the park or on the bank to see if it better with my feet on solid ground.
Cheers.
P
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tenet
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Peter - sounds as if you are trying to aerialize too much line. One weight up or down the aftm scale wouldnt make that much difference. I would shorten the amount outside the tip and increase the speed of the casting stroke.

A further point is that Hi Di lines react better with tippy fast action rods and from memory the Lochmoor series are medium action, certainly my Lochmore z 11ft 7/8 falls into that category.

Good luck.

Doug
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Lighthouse
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Effectively, the 40+ lines are shooting heads which means that they are pushing the upper limits of the AFTM weight scale. In addition the tapers are 'extreme' - particularly the back taper . . . .





If you look at the above chart you'll see that the rear taper of a 40+ is only about 4ft . . . compare this to a Snowbee XS Countdown, around 10 to 12 ft.

What this means is that, the length of line outside the tip ring between the running line / rear taper of a 40+ is critical when you cast . . . extend beyond a very short distance and you will experience the sensation of your cast 'collapsing'. Basically, anything other than the head outside the rod tip plus a 2 to 4 ft of running line . . . 38 to 42ft and you're asking for trouble.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue for me was the line felt to heavy with only around two thirds of the sink tip outside the top ring.
Looking at the promotion video it seems to suggest that the coloured head should be outside the tip loading the rod for the full cast.
This is of course trying to cast into the wind.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not very technical coming from myself, but I find with di lines I get them much further with a shorter line out the top ring and a good double haul and shoot. Too much false casting can be very distructive to a cast imo. Every fore and back cast you make there is room for error. Most good casters I see have low number of false casts but they are accurate and high energy .

I would also echo others comments about possibly a too soft rod, or going down a line rating?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fryfishing wrote:
The issue for me was the line felt to heavy with only around two thirds of the sink tip outside the top ring.
Looking at the promotion video it seems to suggest that the coloured head should be outside the tip loading the rod for the full cast.
This is of course trying to cast into the wind.


I'm sure you're aware that this is not a 'sink tip' and what you really mean is the 'head' front taper, belly and rear taper . . . ie 35ft and yes, compared to a 'traditional' line profile, you were probably experiencing what you would normally associate with 'rod load' with just 25ft or so outside the rod tip. Hi density sinking lines, by the very nature of their density, have a much narrower profile than a floating equivalent and, as a result, they feel much different to cast . . . 'things' happen much quicker, timing / stroke length become much more critical, they're not a 'forgiving' as a floating / intermediate line. That said the front 30ft of a 7wt floater should weigh the same as the front 30ft of a 7wt sinker . . . that's what makes them 7wts but . . . as I've already said, 40+ lines are a bit 'out there' when it comes to conforming to the AFTM scale.

Casting into the wind . . . adds another component to the equation. If you consider the 'casting arc' to describe a 'V'between the stops on the back and forward cast, casting into the wind efficiently requires that arc to be tipped forward . . . wind behind, tipped backward.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the 40+ extremes are overly heavy regardless of the density. I normally overline my rods but not with these. That would feel ridiculously heavy. In answer to your original question I personally would pick one size lighter than the lines you normally use on that rod.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed replies.
I will get out on a field and experiment with the line on the Diawa and my tippy Clearwater and see how I get on with it under more controllable conditions.
Cheers
P
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you have a "field" available - give this a try to familiarise yourself with the correct timing required for your Lochmore/40+ setup. Don't forget when practising, to remove your fly(s) and tie in a twist of wool on the point only, saves injuries and catching a hook repeatedly in the grass Laughing

Set yourself up with your feet angled to the intended cast direction, so you can turn your head to see your backcast. Start with the whole of the head and only 2 feet of orange running line outside the rod tip laying on the ground in front of you - Now smartly lift your rod, accelerating to a firm "stop" as you would normally do to backcast - watch the backcast loop turn over and immediately it does, fully, only then perform your forward cast - don't shoot any line yet - just allow the line to fall in front of you. Repeat with slower and faster rod pickup speeds until you feel you have achieved the the best delivery for minimum effort - You have now found the ideal rod speed for your casting with this setup. Wink

Now get the feel of several casts in both forward and backward directions without dropping your line, just using the same head plus 2 feet of running line.

Practise this until you feel the timing has been ingrained into muscle memory- then strip off extra running line and try a hard double haul - you will be amazed at how far your line now flies Cool

Good long distance casting is much more about immaculate timing - rather than physical effort Wink

HTH ....... Tony
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lakefisher wrote:
A

1. Set yourself up with your feet angled to the intended cast direction, so you can turn your head to see your backcast.

2. Start with the whole of the head and only 2 feet of orange running line outside the rod tip laying on the ground in front of you -

3. Practise this until you feel the timing has been ingrained into muscle memory-

4. Good long distance casting is much more about immaculate timing - rather than physical effort Wink

HTH ....... Tony


1. What Tony is suggesting is known as an 'open stance' but your feet are not 'angled to the intended cast direction'. If you're right handed - your left leg is forward, knee pointing towards the target - you'll find that for comfort your left foot will point slightly to the right of your knee. Your right foot should be directly under your right shoulder with your foot at around 90 degrees to the target. The open stance allows you not only to watch the straightening of the back cast but also to pick a rear target - 180 degrees from your casting target as the fly line must track in a straight line as any deviation from this leads to inefficiency and a reduction in critical line speed. The open stance also accommodates the casting elbow and shoulder moving through an extended casting stroke whereas a closed stance (feet pointing at and shoulders square to the target) tends to promote rotation of the shoulder and the rod tip moving in a curved path. The open stance is also a very stable stance allowing transfer of weight from the front foot to the back foot through the casting stroke.

2. I would recommend that you start your 'pick up and lay down' with less than the whole head out. Keep the fly line trapped against your corks - put your left hand in your pocket. Pick up - lay down a couple of times then feed out a couple more feet of line and repeat. Notice, as you extend line, that the longer the line the wider your casting arc needs to become, the longer the pause becomes to allow the line to straighten in the back cast and the more energy you need to put into your acceleration to a stop.
Eventually you'll get to the point where the head is just outside the rod tip and it's critical that at this stage you are able to maintain a good, narrow loop going into the back cast that straightens opposite the target and which you can lay down in a straight line. If that's not happening then you're not in a position to 'move forward' to the next phase.

3. 'Muscle memory' is a myth as your muscles have no capacity to 'remember'. Knowledge, skill, understanding and memory happens in the head.

4. Good casting, distance or otherwise is about doing the fundamentals well - understanding the 5 principles and being able to apply them -

*Eliminate slack line, the line must be under tension at all time.
*A variable casting stroke - short line / short stroke, long line . . . / . . . long stroke
*Timing - two pauses - short line / short pause, long line . . . / . . . long pause
*Power Application - smooth to a defined stop, translation before rotation, start slow - finish fast
*The rod tip must follow a straight line path - the line follows your rod tip, where your rod tip goes is a reflection of what you do with your hand, arm and shoulder.
[b]
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Failing all that use a downrigger for your backdrifting Smile Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably a really daft question as iv'e not cast from a boat but why do you need to cast a long way when in a boat ?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to fish deep, particularly from a drifting boat.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for the comprehensive replies, lots of food for thought and things to practice.
P
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lighthouse you do explain things rather well, you should write a book.
Now teach me to front haul cos I just cant do it without my line just collapsing into a heap
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